With 'Lucky,' Showrunner Cassie Pappas Dismantles the Cat-and-Mouse Genre

In the writers' room for Lucky, showrunner Cassie Pappas kept coming back to Heat. The Apple TV miniseries bears little resemblance to Michael Mann’s 1995 crime drama, but its writers were gripped by the age-old game of cat-and-mouse: two people locked in a chase because they know nothing else.

“We've seen this idea of a person on the run and a dogged law enforcement chasing him,” Pappas tells Marie Claire over Zoom ahead of Lucky’s two-episode premiere. “Our show now has three women doing that. We have a female criminal (Anya Taylor-Joy), a female mob boss (Annette Bening), and a female FBI agent (Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor). How does that genre change when women are at the helm?”

Based Marissa Stapley’s novel, the series was first popularized as a Reese Witherspoon’s Book Club selection before landing with Pappas (Silo, Griselda) and co-showrunner Jonathan Tropper (Warrior, See). Taylor-Joy, who was attached to the project from the start, plays a grifter often underestimated for her size, age, and gender. “Nobody thinks that she's the smartest person in the room—when actually, every single time, she is,” Pappas says.

While Tropper was in New York filming another Apple TV title, Your Friends and Neighbors, Pappas ran the set for Lucky, which unfolds as an electrifying desert chase across seven episodes. As action-packed as the series is, it never strays from its emotional core: the relationship between Taylor-Joy’s character and her con-artist father (Timothy Olyphant). With Olyphant’s John in federal prison and Lucky unsure whom she can trust, she grapples with an identity crisis while on the run.

“I won't give anything away, but a big action sequence ends in her realizing, ‘My cons have real consequences,’” Pappas says. “We were always trying to have an emotional depth piece connected. If we're going to crash a car, we want it to also make you feel something deep about the character.”

With the first two episodes of Lucky streaming now, Pappas tells Marie Claire about writing a conscientious con artist, working with a star-studded cast, and crafting a “muscular, propulsive” thriller with Reese Witherspoon and Lauren Neustadter of Hello Sunshine.

Marie Claire: Tell me about adapting this novel. There are some big changes from page to screen. What were the thought processes behind some of those choices—or sticking points?

Cassie Pappas: Reese and Lauren from Hello Sunshine got the rights to the book [and were] extremely involved every step of the way. They were always on set. They give very detailed notes on scripts. They are the most hands-on producers that I've ever worked with. This was more muscular and more action-packed than some of the shows they had done in the past, and they were super eager to go there—and they were responsible for attaching Anya. Every single word we wrote with her in mind.

But the thing that we gravitated towards the most in the book was this dysfunctional father-daughter relationship. Tropper, having written something like This Is Where I Leave You, I know he does dysfunctional families very well, and if I were to tell you any of my family stories, you'd be like, “Oh, you're primed and ready to write that.” But what made the stakes higher is that theme of, How am I like my parents? What baggage have I inherited? What am I genetically predisposed to?

Her dad's a con artist. He's a criminal, and he's raised her exactly like him, to be an extension of him. She was born into a life of crime that she didn't choose, but she's really fucking good at it because he raised her in his likeness. As she's trying to get out of this life and come of age, there's this self-awareness theme. She's physically running from those external forces, but internally, I liked the conflict of, What if the thing I'm running from is in my blood? What if I can't outrun it? Can I be the author of my own life?

MC: How involved were you in the casting process?

CP: We had Anya, and then we knew the next person we needed to cast was Priscilla. Annette Bening was always our number one, but I don't know that any of us really thought we were going to be lucky enough to get her. When we sent her the script, she leaned in and wanted to hear more. When it became real, it almost feels like any other actor is like, “Yeah, I'd love to be on board.” The Tim piece came because Jonathan Tropper had worked with him before, and I know that Lauren had a relationship with him—but my understanding was that he had heard about the part and was very, very interested in it as well.

MC: The first thing that gripped me from episode 1 was the action. It's brutal; it's very engaging. How did you go about mapping and executing that, and what role did Anya play in the process?

CP: I think the reason [Hello Sunshine] went to Tropper first is because he had a more action-heavy background. The word that kept being used a lot was “muscular.” In television, everybody wants something bingeable, they want something propulsive, so those are the words that kept being thrown around.

The pilot is a full sprint with a huge action set piece at the end, which then allowed us in episode 2 to go, “Let's take a downbeat, let's have her hide, let's have her lick her wounds, let's have her figure out her next move.” You can really do character in that episode. It was about managing both, and we never wanted to do action for action's sake. We wanted it to always have emotional depth or truth to it.

MC: In the first episodes, she's much more mysterious as a character. I would love to know more about writing Lucky in those early stages—what you choose to reveal, to obscure, and what you want the audience to think.

CP: One of the things that I really connected to was this idea of deep down underneath all the masks, she has no idea who she is—and I think that terrifies her. I think she spent her whole life reading the room. If she's talking to a mark, she's going to reflect back to the mark what they want to hear, what they think, and then she's going to con them. It's not until after she leaves the room that the person will realize, "Oh my gosh, I was just taken.” As long as she's living in that space of wearing a mask, she's been confident.

But as she comes of age and as she physically runs, I think there's something about the physical distance that gives her space to go, “Well, who the hell am I really? If I'm not doing this to people, I actually don't know who I am.”

MC: There's so much betrayal in this show. At some point, I thought I should stop being surprised by it.

CP: We did a lot of research in the early days of the writers' room about the art of the con. I'd never worked on a show that dealt with a con artist, so that was the piece of the show that I felt the most insecure about. I was like, “I can do the father-daughter thing, I'm all good on the character stuff, but I really want to dig deep on this world of con artists.” There was this book that we read called The Confidence Game, and that was really insightful. Con artists are apparently in a constant cycle of trust and betrayal. They gain your trust, they get what they want, then they betray you, and something in this book said that there might be a connection to that in your past as a child. You might be working out childhood trauma of experiences of trust and then betrayal, and not realizing it.

MC: As you said, Lucky was born and raised into this lifestyle and doesn't want to be part of it—but how do you feel that she fits into it? How do you view her moral framing within this?

CP: It lives in that space of nature versus nurture. Part of me is like, she's her father's daughter, so she's inherently born to be good at this stuff, but she might not want to use those skills. And then the choices that she makes throughout this seven-episode arc show her moral compass, her desire to be free, her desire to stop running. There's something beautiful about admitting that you don't know who you are, but that you are excited to figure that out, that you want to learn.

There are a lot of labels that women take on that really define who you are, or who you think you are. You're a mother, you're a daughter, you're a wife, you're a sister, you're a sibling—and if you remove each one of those labels and you untether yourself from them, well then who are you really? If you don't know the answer to that question, which I don't think Lucky does, then you get into that self-identity thing like, Who am I, and/or, Do I kind of maybe just want to be nobody? Do I just want to be free of all the masks and all the labels? I think she's fantasizing about “How can I get there, and what would that life look like?”

MC: Do you have a favorite scene or sequence?

CP: Episode 2 is one of my favorites when Lucky is hiding out in that ranch house in the desert, and the FBI agent is in the house. There's such simplicity to it. It's the opposite of an action sequence, and it is so tense, so edge-of-your-seat, and the acting from Aunjanue and Anya is so exquisite. What's interesting is once Aunjanue is in the house, there's not a lot of dialogue; it's just her crawling from one room to the other. It read well on the page, but then when we shot it, it got so much better.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.